Chapter 1: Introduction to the topic

Okay, here we are. The New Jerusalem. Is it literal? Is it metaphorical? Is it real? Or is it spiritual? A brotherly debate. Why are we doing this lesson? Well, I think probably just for fun and an insight. As you guys know, uh Glenn and I spend um a fair amount of time together. We we have this time obviously for Shabbat. On Sundays, we go out for breakfast and we talk about holy things. When David’s in town, we’ll go out for dinner and we’ll talk about holy things. And every now and then, Glenn will say something or I will say something that the other one gets our attention because it doesn’t quite line up with our understanding or his understanding. And this came up, I don’t know when, probably a few weeks ago, and we started talking about it. So, I thought, you know what? Let’s let’s put both of these perspectives before

the brothers and sisters in class because I think that there is a fair amount of um question out there in a lot of people’s minds as to what is literal, what is not, what’s supposed to be seen as a metaphor and what is not. And so we tossed around how we should do this a few times and what we ended up with was I’m going to present my two cents here in the course of today’s discussion and then Glenn will present his two cents uh next week and uh and then we’ll be able to discuss amongst ourselves uh or ask questions amongst ourselves as to what was presented from a brotherly perspective. I have nothing but a great deal of respect for Glenn and his insights into the word. He’s extremely knowledgeable on the word. I lean on that. I depend on that as a brother. But

you’ve heard me say a hundred times, I don’t see 100% eye to eye with every person that I know and love. And I think that’s a good thing because it helps us be sharp and um helps us to learn things that we thought we knew that we didn’t quite uh understand. So let’s jump into this lesson. First, this esquetology.

Chapter 2: Setting the stage

The study of end times is among the most difficult areas of biblical study. Not only because of the complexity of prophetic texts and diversity of interpretive frameworks, but also because it requires the student to hold their conclusions with an open hand. As one grows in their understanding of scripture, examining passages in their original context, comparing prophecy with fulfillment, and allowing the whole council of Yahw to speak, there often comes a point when previously held positions must be re-examined or even abandoned. Such shifts demand humility, the willingness to admit past error, to be corrected by the word rather than by tradition or personal preference, and to follow truth wherever it leads, even if it costs reputation, comfort, or

agreement with others. In this way, esquetology becomes not merely an intellectual pursuit, but also a refining work of the heart if one allows for it. And before I go on, I will say that I’ve seen this spirit in Glenn already. And that’s one of the reasons why uh I I’m so close to him and that I appreciated him so much is because he has already demonstrated in the in the gosh, how long’s it been that we’ve known each other, Glenn? Has it been a year? Been two years? I can’t remember. Long time. It’s been a couple years maybe. Uh he’s demonstrated the heart of a child in this regard. And so I appreciate that and I’d like to I’d like to believe that I have the same spirit and willingness to uh change my understanding of things.

What follows is a friendly, brotherly exchange on the nature and substance of the New Jerusalem. It’s not a formal debate with timed responses or third-party moderation like you may have seen brother Hamp do in the past, but rather two brothers in the faith openly sharing their perspectives with mutual respect and love without fear of condemnation, seeking above all to sharpen one another through the truth of God’s word. And we see that’s this famous passage that we hold to in times like this 1 Corinthians 11 that there must be factions among you. There must be these subtle differences among you that those who are approved may be recognized. So why is that important to me? I’ll tell you why it’s important to me. In my previous reality that being with church um these types of um differences

were not tolerated. I would never be given the platform to teach something that the church didn’t believe. I am secure that when I give Glenn number two the platform of of my YouTube channel tomorrow, I am secure that whether he is right or I am right or he’s wrong or I’m wrong, it doesn’t really matter because we have to have these factions among us. We have to have these differences of pers in perspective and interpretation of certain things so that we give the spirit of God room to move and to um to have him allow the time for the truth to rise to the top what whatever it is. Now in this particular subject I in this discussion I will present why I believe the new

Jerusalem is a literal physical structure that will descend from heaven be established on the earth tracing its history is revealed through throughout scripture. And number two will offer his thoughts next week as to why the New Jerusalem is more spiritual in nature and not meant to be understood literally. Here’s what I was getting to. Does it matter if I am correct or if Glenn is correct? And the answer is no. Because regardless of the truth in this matter, when we get to that point in history, if it’s real, Glenn is still going to be fired up. If it’s not and it’s it’s metaphorical, I’m still going to be fired up. We’re all going to be fired up to be a part of whatever this is that’s coming. So, in that sense, it’s not one of those situations where you draw lines in the sand and should never be. Um, we’re we’re going to have fun looking at these things together,

whatever they are. So, let’s get into it. The mountain of God. Ezekiel 28.

Chapter 3: The mountain of God

What’s happening in Ezekiel 28? Well, Ezekiel 28 is a verse in which the father is speaking to the enemy, Hassatan. But within the words that is being spoken to has we can understand some some things in regard to the New Jerusalem. He says you were the seal of perfection full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden the garden of God. Every precious stone was your covering. The sardis, the topaz, the diamond, the barrel, the onyx, the jasper, sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The

workmanship of your timbers and pipes was prepared for you the day you were created. You were the anointed cherub who covers. I established you. You were on the holy mountain of God. You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. Okay. Why am I showing this passage? Well, I believe that in this verse, the way that the Hebrew is constructed, the grammar in the Hebrew is directly connecting Eden with the mountain of God, implying that Eden itself encompassed or contained that mountain at one time. We can see the Hebrew here. Unfortunately, it’s in the contemporary Hebrew with all of the jotss and the titles in there. But as as anyone who

can read that and I wish David was here because he he could verify this will understand that the grammar here in the Hebrew text moves from the general location in Eden to the specific place within Eden on the mountain of God. So in Hebrew parallelism, these are not contradictory locations but layered descriptions. The mountain of God is in Eden much as Mount Zion is in Jerusalem. And we’re going to see this popping up more and more as we go along. So my point being here that when the earth and Adam and all things were new before the fall, this mountain, this New Jerusalem, if you will, was there in Eden.

And I believe the text supports that. Throughout scripture, this mountain is called the New Jerusalem. We see in

Chapter 4: Scriptural names for the city

Revelation 21, he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God. Psalm 48. Great is the Lord and greatly to be praised. In the city of our God, in his holy mountain, beautiful in elevation, the joy of the whole earth is Mount Zion on the sides of the north, the great city of the king or the city of the great king. So right there in Psalm 48, we see it described in three different ways. All three things describing the thing the same entity. The city of our God, his holy mountain, Mount Zion, the city of the great king, all these things are connected as one and the same. So when I think about Ezekiel 28, when I think about what it’s telling us about this New Jerusalem, I will show I I hope

I will show that this structure, whatever this structure was, whe be it real or or not, was in Eden, was in the garden of God, this mountain, this New Jerusalem. And when Yeshua returns, we know that he is going to be recreating, if you will, paradise on earth. When the earth is made new and the heavens are made new, everything is going to be remade the way it was when he created all things. That includes the presence of this physical thing called the mountain of God, the city of God, Mount Zion. We see throughout scripture, it goes by many names. Mount Zion, mountain of the Lord, the holy mountain, mountain of the

Lord’s house, mountain of holiness, the city of the living God, the holy city, Jerusalem above, the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of my God, the great high mountain, and my father’s house. So, it goes by many names throughout scripture.

Chapter 5: Descending to Earth

descending to earth. In Revelation 21, it says, “This is John speaking. This is his vision.” And I I highlighted certain words and phrases because I think it lends credence to the validity of its literal presence. Now, I saw a new heaven and a new earth. For the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride, adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be

his people.” God himself will be with them and be their God. So John sees this city descending and he goes on to define what this city is. This city is the tabernacle where God will dwell with men. Well, we all know that the tabernacle is not just a metaphorical thing but a very real thing. Again in verses 9- 11, then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked to me or with me, saying, “Come, I will show you the bride, the lamb’s wife.” And he carried me away in the spirit to a great high mountain and showed me the great city, the the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, having the glory of

God. So here we see again this same thing that John is seeing and the scripture says he saw the holy city. He saw the great and high mountain.

Chapter 6: Equating city and bride

So, the language of Revelation 21 uh in both of those verses affirms the New Jerusalem as a tangible physical reality because John explicitly states that he saw Aiden in Greek, the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. In Revelation, Aiden, that Greek word, is consistently used for actual visible events or objects presented to the prophet’s sight, not mere symbolic concepts. The description is given in spatial and physical terms, a city with dimensions, and we’re going to talk more about this later, gates, walls, and foundations. All of which reinforce that what John witnessed was not an abstract idea but a real structure in the renewed creation.

Well, here’s the big question. Wait a minute, Ed. In verses 9 through 11, he actually equates the bride of Christ with the New Jerusalem. We can see it there above. So, isn’t this proof that it isn’t the real city, but rather his adorned people? And if you read Revelation 21 9-11, you could absolutely come to that conclusion. Why don’t I come to that conclusion?

Chapter 7: Refuge in chambers

In Isaiah 26, he says in verses 19- 20, “Your dead shall live. Together with my dead body, these shall arise. This is a time Isaiah is prophesying about the end of days when Yeshua returns. Awake and sing you who dwell in the dust. For your due is like the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Take refuge from the coming judgment. Come my people, enter your chambers and shut your doors behind you. Hide yourself as it were for a little moment until the indignation is passed. We looked at this verse some months ago. It’s probably been a year ago now when we took a brief look at the New Jerusalem in another lesson.

And we asked the question, what are what are these chambers? This obviously is referring to the time when Yeshua arrive returns and the dead in Christ arrive arise first and those of us who are alive when he returns in Christ shall meet them in the air. This is the same thing that Isaiah is prophesying that Paul mentions in his letter to the Thessalonians. Okay? So this is all the same. So he’s telling us that at this time we are to quote unquote enter chambers and shut the doors behind us until Yeshua takes care of business. So, we’ve examined this passage before and in that discussion I suggested that these chambers are indeed located within

the gates of the New Jerusalem itself which remained above the earth until his wrath had passed and then descended to the earth. Now, will I die on this hill? No. Uh, I try to believe that I won’t die on any one hill if I can be shown otherwise in scripture. But I do believe that scripture speaks to this.

Chapter 8: The hidden place

In Psalm 27 and Psalm 31, we see something interesting. David says, “For in the time of trouble, he shall hide me in his pavilion, and in the secret place of his tabernacle, he shall hide me.” Psalm 31, you shall hide them in the secret place of your presence from the plots of man. So in context, I believe these two verses are a reference to Yahw’s dwelling place as understood in David’s time. He’s not speaking about the end times as we were above in those two verses. the tabernacle, the temple as a symbolic center of his presence. Not a prophetic description of the millennial temple, but it is conveying the same concept that we see in Isaiah, right? The same concept that we see in Isaiah 26 about us being

protected or hidden in these quote unquote chambers. David is echoing for his own time. However, in Zephaniah 2 and in John 14, we see, “Seek the Lord, all you meek of the earth who have upheld his justice. Seek righteousness. Seek humility. It may be that you will be hidden in the day of the Lord’s anger.” Now, this is a reference to the same thing that Isaiah is speaking of in uh chapter 26. This being hidden in the day of the Lord’s anger is the same thing. The question is being hidden where? John 14 we learn and have learned that there are many houses in my father’s mansion. If it were not so, I would have

told you that I go to prepare a place for you. Now, this is very interesting. If it’s metaphorical and not literal, then then what is he preparing? And the word place in John 14 also in my mind lends to the credibility of a real structure. He is going to prepare that place. What is the place he’s preparing? These many mansions. Now what you and I think of when we think of mansions is not the same thing that we’ll eventually see. But nonetheless, we do see that Yeshua is preparing this place for us. Okay. So, the question is, what does this mean? And how does it apply to equating the New Jerusalem with the bride?

Chapter 9: Bridal imagery explained

And how does it answer the question as to what these chambers are that we are supposed to be hidden in during the time of his wrath? So I put before you this image. What do we see in this image? Len number two, we see a bride and a carriage and a horse and a driver. Right? So if you were at a wedding and someone said, “Look, here comes the bride.” and you turn to see this scene, would you think the bride was the horse or the carriage? Of course not. Would you assume the driver was the bride? No. You would understand that the bride is the one being brought in the carriage.

So it is in John’s vision in Revelation 21 where it equates the New Jerusalem with the bride. I believe this is the same thing. John looked up and saw the bride descending. Why was she descending in the New Jerusalem? How did she get there? She got there at the first resurrection when Yeshua hid them away in her chambers until his wrath was over. And then she descends with the New Jerusalem. That’s my two cents on that verse. A city prepared.

Chapter 10: Typology of preparation

We see typology here. And you know, we’ve talked about typology as of late, but I wanted to show it to you. In Exodus 23, we see the type. What’s happening in Exodus 23? Well, they’re getting ready to enter into the place that was prepared for them, the promised land. And he says, “Behold, I send an angel.” Now, is this an angel in the truest sense? No. I believe it’s Yeshua before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. Let’s stop right there for a moment. How did the father prepare Canaan? How did he prepare the promised land that they were getting ready to enter? Well, we know from other scripture, and I couldn’t possibly list them all here, but I will reference what they say. We

know that from scripture, there were already fortified cities in this land. people that Israel would eventually overcome and uh and and with God’s power remove from that place leaving behind fortified cities, fortified places to live, buildings, structures. So in that sense, the area that they would go into inhabit was already prepared for them. They weren’t going to go into the promised land and have to build from the ground up where they were going to live. Why? Cuz it was already there. The city structures were already there. And so I believe that is a hint for us when we enter in to the new afterlife.

There is going to be thing things there already for us. The quote unquote mansions that Yeshua said he was going to prepare in advance of our arrival. He goes on to say, “Beware be beware of him and obey his word. Do not provoke him, for he will not pardon your transgressions, for my name is in him. But if you indeed invo obey his voice and do all that I speak, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries. So just like them, what was required to enter into this promised land? Well, it was obedience to the word, right? To all the things that he spoke. And I believe it’s true for us as well. Well, what’s the antitype? Well, we see it already. We we looked at it briefly already, John 14,

Chapter 11: Faith in the city

that he’s going to prepare a place for us. He’s going to have this place ready for us, these mansions, whatever they’re going to be. So, we see this idea both in in Old Testament and New uh in typology, type and anti-ype, a foreshadowing in or an omen to a reality. So again, I believe this also lends credibility to the fact that there will actually be a real structure prepared for our arrival. And we see this repeated throughout scripture. Hebrews 11. By faith, Abraham opened or I’m sorry, obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out not

knowing where he was going. By faith he dwelt in the land of promise, as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise. For he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God. So here Abraham is living in the land in tents but had the faith and was aware of this coming city whom God built. So the only city in scripture described with divinely built foundations is in fact the New Jerusalem. And I think that’s an important thing to remember in this argument. Again, Hebrews 12,

Chapter 12: Coming to Mount Zion

you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. So here we see just in that first verse that he has described this place in three different ways. Mount Zion, the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem are one and the same. to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly. That word there in the Greek is festal gathering, the church, the ecclesia of the firstborn, who you are reg who are registered in heaven to God the judge of all, to the spirits of just men, made perfect, to Jesus, the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. So again, we see in Hebrews 12 language that is used to kind of um bolster my

position on the fact that these things are not rhetoric, are not um um metaphorical, but are actually indeed a real city, a real mountain, the heavenly Jerusalem.

Chapter 13: Details of John’s vision

So let’s look briefly at what John saw. And uh again I have highlighted it in blue and yellow some things that I believe bolster the idea or the notion or the belief call it what you will that we’re looking at a real thing here and not something that’s just allegorical or metaphorical. In his vision, he he calls out the wall of the city, 12 foundations, and on them were the names of the 12 apostles of the lamb. And he who talked with me had a gold reed to measure the city,

its gates, and its walls. In my mind, when I read that, I go, “Okay, if the New Jerusalem is metaphorical and supposed to to mean the body of Christ or the bride, I believe that’s where Glenn is going. Don’t want to put words in his mouth, but if that’s what this is supposed to mean, that we’re supposed to understand that this New Jerusalem is actually the bride of Christ, how does an angel measure that? How does he measure the city, the gates, the walls of the bride of Christ? The city is laid out as a square. Its length is as great as its breadth. Again, a very physical description. He measured the city with the reed.

12,000 furongs. Its length, breadth, and height are equal. and he measured its wall 140 cubits according to the measure of a man that is of an angel. The construction, those two words right there, I think says it all. The construction of its wall was of jasper and this city was pure gold like clear glass. The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with all kinds of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third, what’s that word, Glenn? Number two, Calcadoni. The fourth, emerald, the fifth, sardonics, the sixth, sardius, the seventh, crystallite, the eighth,

barrel, the ninth, tropaz, the 10th cryophrase praise, the 11th jason, and the 12th amethyst. The 12 gates were the 12 pearls. Each individual gate was of one pearl, and the street of the city was pure gold like transparent glass. So when I look at this, when I look at what John saw, I’m seeing reality, and I hate to use that word, but that’s what I’m seeing.

Chapter 14: Literal nature of description

I’m seeing that he’s measuring tangible things. Revelation 21 presents precise architectural details including exact measurements, specific building materials such as jasper, pure gold, so on and so forth, the 12 distinct precious stones, and the naming of the 12 gates after the tribes of Israel, elements that are characteristic of an actual tangible structure rather than a symbolic image, thereby giving strong evidence to the literal nature of the New Jerusalem’s description. And we know that this is not the only description of the New Jerusalem in scripture. Right. Right. CL number two. Yes. Where is it? Well, it’s in it’s in Ezekiel. However, I do not have the room or the time to

Chapter 15: Ezekiel’s vision

show you all of Ezekiel’s vision because it spans the entire 40th chapter. and concludes with part of the 48th chapter. But taken at face value, his vision is a guided tour of a massive, perfectly measured, divinely designed city, temple, complex set upon a high mountain in the land of Israel. Ezekiel is shown gates, courts, chambers, walls, and a sanctuary, all recorded with exact dimensions by an angelic messenger whose task is to ensure the prophet sees and declares these realities to the house of Israel.

The text precision in measurement, geographical orientation, and architectural detail leaves no allowance for a purely symbolic interpretation. Instead, it confirms the legitim the legitimacy of a literal physical new Jerusalem that will descend and stand as the dwelling place of God with his

Chapter 16: City features and functions

people. It has exact measurements not just in Ezekiel but also in Revelation. These exact measurements are details would that would be unnecessary if the vision were purely symbolic. Geographical orientation. The city temple complex is oriented with an east gate facing the sunrise matching descriptions of God’s glory returning from the east. Why mention that it’s facing the sunrise if it’s symbolic? Will the body of Christ, the bride, always be facing the east?

Again, it doesn’t make sense. Physical features. Ezekiel describes chambers for priests, places for offerings, and kitchens for cooking sacrifices, all implying tangible functioning spaces. It’s got a river of life, a literal river flowing from under the threshold of the temple, bringing life to the land and healing to the nations. It’s the Dead Sea is sure. Tribal a lotments. In chapter 48, specific boundaries are drawn for each tribe’s inheritance with a city located at the center consistent with a real physical location on the earth.

Chapter 17: Gates and nations

Let’s talk about in and out of the gates briefly. Revelation 21. And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it. Into what? Into the New Jerusalem. So, let’s look at that verse a little closer. The nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light. What light? Well, we’re told elsewhere that the New Jerusalem will have no need of a sun or a moon because the lamb is its light, right? People will be walking in this light and these nations

will bring their glory into it. into what? Into the bride of Christ. No, that doesn’t make sense. No. Into the structure, into the place, into the reality of the New Jerusalem. So, in my mind, this depicts a flow of people and resources in and out of the New Jerusalem, implying a functional civic existence. In Revelation 22, blessed are those who do his commandments that they may have the right to the tree of life and may

Chapter 18: Obedience and entry

enter through the gates of the city. So here we see that gate entry is presented as an ongoing privilege tied to obedience. Over and over and over again, we see this language of uh being on the inside or the outside of this gate. No other place more clear than Matthew 22 where it says when the king came in to see the guests came into what? This is the wedding feast of the lamb. Where is that taking place?

Chapter 19: Outer darkness

To me, it can’t be taking place in a metaphorical experience. It has to be taking place in an actual real structure. He saw a man sitting there who didn’t have his wedding garment on. We know what those wedding garments are, don’t we, Glenn? Number two, that’s our righteousness, our faith in Yeshua. So, we said to him, “Friend, how do you come in here without a wedding garment?” and he was speechless. The king said, “Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness.” We discussed this in a previous lesson that this phrase outer darkness is only in scripture three times and all of them in Matthew. What’s happening here?

This man is thrown outside the gates of the New Jerusalem. Where is the New Jerusalem at that time? And my belief. It’s on the planet. It’s a physical structure. People are trying to get in to it all the time. They want to be in and not out. What is the out? The out is the world around it. That is the outer darkness where people are still able to sin and live their lives without Christ, without his influence. And that is what the outer darkness is, where there’s going to be weeping and nashing of teeth. Why are they weeping and nashing their teeth? Because they can’t get in. Because maybe they thought they they belonged in, but they’re not in.

So there’s a sharp distinction here between a city that requires no sun to what is on the outside of the gates being darkness which I just said there. So all this language for multiple prophets spanning from Genesis to Revelation

Chapter 20: Summary of literal case

in my opinion cannot and should not be interpreted as purely metaphorical. And for me there’s just a few things that ends the argument. We’ve looked at them briefly already. This is my last slide, so I want to kind of go over it one more time. The physical dimensions and materials. The city has measurable geometry. It’s laid out as a square. Its length is as great as its breadth 12,000 stadia. Its length, breadth, and heart are height are equal. The wall 140 cubits. It’s detailed building materials are given wall of Jasper. We looked at all that the 12 gates.

See, these are concrete descriptions and not merely abstract. That’s one of the things that ends the argument for me. The fact that it’s God’s dwelling place with humans. Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them. The emphasis here being on Yahw’s dwelling with a located people in a located place. That’s where the tabernacle of God will be. Heavenly origin now earthly manifestation. Then Galatians 4 calls it the Jerusalem above.

Well, that Jerusalem above is what will descend. So now it’s got a heavenly origin. Then it will have an earthly manifestation. So if we’re to understand that this New Jerusalem is the bride of Christ and not to be understood as literal, then how is she in how is she above now? She’s not above now. She’s here with us now. She’s in the world now. That’s us. And yet it says this Jerusalem above which is the mother of us all will someday be here. The patriarchs waited for the city which has foundations. He prepared a city for them.

Believers already have come to this Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heaven and Jerusalem. Yet we have no continuing city. We seek the one to come. So we have, as Hebrews says, come to that mountain because of our faith. We have come to the city of the living God. We look forward to its arrival. We seek the one like Abraham that is to come. And Yeshua promises a prepared place in my father’s house. We looked at that. I go to prepare a place for you. So together these show a present heavenly reality that will descend and be manifest on the new earth when it is recreated when we get a new heaven and a new earth. So that is my

Chapter 21: Brotherly discussion

discussion as to why the New Jerusalem is a real thing. Now I remain and will always remain open to Glenn’s perspective, which we’re all going to hear next week. I can’t wait to hear it. Um, and I’m sure Glenn is also as equally open to my um, my thoughts, but let’s open it up for your thoughts and your questions and your insights. Wait a minute. Okay. Um, I have just one question, Ed, and I read across this a few times, and it refers to Matthew 22, um, where we’re saying that we’re thrown in the bad guys thrown out into utter darkness and nashing of teeth. And that’s outside of the city from my thoughts was that they’re only going to

be the saints at at this point. So why would anybody be thrown out? I thought they’d be all gone and disposed of. Well, your uh your thoughts are in line with the eighth day, if you if you will, when we when everything is done and we go on to eternity. But um let me get rid of this view cuz I can’t stand looking at myself as I’m talking. Um when when Yeshua returns, it’s my conviction, and I think Glenn differs on this a little bit, but we can let him share that next week. It’s my conviction that the New Jerusalem comes with him. It’s my conviction that when he comes and judges the world for a thousand years, there’s going to be life going on outside the gates for a millennium. Okay? But for a thousand a thousand years, life will be going on for millions of people

uh for for a thousand years. That to me, that’s a reference to the outer darkness. Um, perfection as you know it, as we know it, will be happening within the gates of the New Jerusalem. We’ll all have our new bodies. The faithful will be there judging the nations, as Paul says. We’ll all have our new bodies, but on the outside will be the rest of the world for a thousand years. Um, we we did a study on this part of our discussion, this part of the New Jerusalem, uh, several months back. I think I called the lesson, what did I call the lesson? The New Jerusalem. I I can’t remember. You can look for it in my catalog. Um and and so that phrase outer darkness found only in Matthew is a reference to this. We see Luke’s description of it in

in chapter 13 giving us a little more insight into what this is. How how why do I don’t think outer darkness is hell? Well, think about the logistics for a moment. If outer darkness is a reference to hell, then that means hell is directly outside the gates of heaven. If he’s thrown outside the gates and he’s in hell, that means the only thing that separates hell from heaven is a gate. I just don’t think that works biblically. No, it’s to me it’s supposed to be interpreted as a literal gate on a literal planet in a literal city and the literal earth and world is happening outside of it. Does that make sense, Paul?

Yeah. I guess I guess I’m I’m probably interpreting that at this point u the New Jerusalem has been created. They that has come down from heaven. And of course, all the bad guys shouldn’t be there at that point. And they maybe this is referring to, as you said, the thousand years where there’s still everybody around Jerusalem. Yes, I think that’s what I think that’s what scripture is telling us. I think Glenn’s got a different perspective on that, but um we’ll look forward to hearing his thoughts on it. Ben, uh let’s see who had their hands up first. Ray, shalom, everyone. Shalom. Uh, I had a couple of thoughts on the New Jerusalem. Uh, I think it could be, you know, there’s some debates whether

who’s the bride. Is it us or is it the New Jerusalem? Cuz Roman Revelation chapter 21 talks about it’s descending from from heaven adorned as a bride. I think it’s both because um when you think of what Yeshua says that we’re now the temple and that we’re lively stones and he’s the chief cornerstone. Could it be that the new Jerusalem or this the temple that descends out of heaven will have stones with our names on them? Like literal stones plus our names written on them as he’s the chief cornerstone. So that the bride is both and I I loved your picture that showed the chair, you know, the little uh carriage with the bride inside of it. So it kind of makes sense that if if the if we’re in the city and we’re coming down, then it’s then that would be the bride. Um that’s what I kind of see. Um, as far as when that comes down, as I see it, it seems like after the

thousand years, because we see Satan crushed in 20 and then in 21 the new the city descends. Now, is it out of order? I don’t know. U, but I’ve always leaned towards it’s it’s the eighth day and that’s when the city descends. But I I could be wrong on that and I’m I’m I’m fine. I’m up to, you know, that’s debatable. But that’s what I kind of thought is that the bride has our names written that the the temple has our names written on it as the stones because we’re lively stones. So could you know it’s something to think about. But that’s what I thought I thought. Thank you. Thank you. I really appreciate that. Um what was I going to say? Oh, here’s what I was going to say. If you read um Revelation chronologically,

then you absolutely will come to the conclusion the New Jerusalem comes at the end of a thousand-year period. Right. Right. That’s why I said it might not be in chronological order because that’s a big debate. Um Revelation is probably not written in chronological order. So that’s why I’m up for debate that that’s I’m up for being chain. You know, I could be totally wrong. If it’s not written in chronological order, then I’m wrong. Yeah. No, I don’t believe it is. I don’t think so. And I believe this I believe the scriptures tell us why it can’t be looked at in a linear fashion. Because I let me give you an example. Right now I am looking at a screen with 30 people on it.

Some of you are just names. Some of you are pictures. Some of you are video. I’m seeing what’s happening in your living rooms all at the same time. I saw Chris holding his do his his daughter. And then I saw Tim scratching his nose. And then I saw Paul kissing his wife. And then I saw Gordon Gordon touch his head. Is this happening linearly? No. It’s happening all at the same time. Okay. I do believe there are some things linear in the events that happened in Revelation.

But I I think we we make the mistake of not looking at it the way John looked at it. He was seeing a vision. Yeah. and he was seeing all this thing these things happening unfolding at the same time. So I I think we make the mistake in assuming that we have to read revelation chronologically and then therefore we put the coming of the New Jerusalem at the very end if we do that. Okay. instead of looking at it thematically. Correct. That’s what I have come to understand helps me have a better understanding of the timeline of events. It it uh if if

we read it chronologically then we in my opinion we get into trouble because wait a minute I just read that in another chapter and here it’s saying it’s happening again. Yeah. And where would Christ rule and reign from if the temple wasn’t here? If you leave it to the end at the eighth day, then where is he ruling and reigning from? So that makes no sense. And then in chapter 15, it says that we’re caught up before the wrath of God and we’re sitting on a sea of glass. And you brought up the temple had transparent streets made of gold. It almost sounds like we’re sitting in the temple. And so it could descend after the wrath of God because now the earth is made clean and now the temple comes down. That wasn’t for you. Okay.

Yes, good good insights, Ray. Yes, Glenn’s over here. He’s he’s he’s doing this like he’s getting ready to, you know, so I just I had to laugh. But okay, brother Luke, go ahead. Hey, Shabbat shalom. Um, yeah, I agree with everything you said. I mean, when Yeshua rose from the tomb, he was both physical and spiritual. He was able to eat food and he was walking through walls and appearing and disappearing. So I don’t understand why it can’t be both at the same time if we are I don’t know that’s pretty much it. I just don’t understand why it’s so difficult to have

both at the same time. And I agree with you about the the linear and all that, you know, like when John saw the seven balls being poured out, the first ball was poured out. The second ball that’s linear, you know, uh but again, he was seeing it as this broad, you know. Yeah. So that’s it. That’s enough out of me. Okay. Amen. Thank you, brother. Appreciate that. Somebody else has to have a thought or a question. Don’t be shy. I want to hear from you. Go ahead, Elanu. Elanu, make sure you’re unmuted. Okay. Shabbat shalom, brother Ed.

Shabbat shalom. Uh, it’s wonderful hearing from you. you know, everything you’re saying for me, some of them were so they were so much overwhelming. I’m still growing. Um, there’s this part I read that we know in part that when he comes, we get to know better and we grasp it. I it will be clear clearer to us. I I want to ask a question. Mine is I’m asking bringing myself out. Is it like being lazy to search or seek on my part or is it because it I kind of think um some things about um the end time. Um I

believe that’s me. I stand to be corrected. I believe that some of these things we ask by depending just holding to his word just acting on faith trusting what he has said now about the New Jerusalem whether it’s literal whether um it’s metaphorical that I really do not get clearly I do not understand yeah Jerusalem is described as the so I am asking seeking to know is it does it mean that I’m being lazy at seeking when I think like well it’s we he said we will know in part is when he comes we’ll get to know clearly is it laziness to seek on my part I’m just asking

is it laziness to seek on your part is that the question yes yes because sometimes when I when I when I I think I’m wanting to know everything and um it takes away the place of trusting. That’s how I reason trusting him for things. That’s how I’m looking at it. So I I also have this thought. Am I being lazy? That’s why I’m asking. No, sister. I don’t think that at all. I think it’s our responsibility to seek out the truth. understand. Yes, I do. Yes. I I think it’s our responsibility to seek out as much as we can in scripture. Inevitably, you’re going to run into things like this where gosh, you know what? I I relate to Glenn’s perspective

or I relate to Ed’s perspective and then we’re not going to know certain things absolutely until he returns. You’ve heard me say it a thousand times that when Yeshua comes back, I think a lot of people are going to be rewriting their theology be because there’s, you know, there’s there’s things that we just misunderstood or we didn’t know in full as you said, as Paul said, and when that time comes, it’s all going to become clear. Some issues biblically are certainly not ones that we should be drawing lines in the sand over. This is one of them. Um I think we have to always be open to um other people’s perspective and insights. Why? Because I may not have those perspectives and those insights

and they may be helpful to my understanding or helpful to my faith. And so to that end, we’re always willing to listen to someone who has a difference of opinion in these matters. Uh while at the same time always guarding our heart, we don’t want to be led astray by philosophy or or men’s wisdom. And I don’t think that what I’m putting forward is philosophy or men’s wisdom. I don’t think what Glenn’s going to put forward next week is philosophy or men’s wisdom. It’s just how it’s how we’re we’re understanding things. And so seek it out as much as you can, as much as you can. I don’t think that’s not being faithful or not trusting in Yeshua. He wants you to seek these things out while at the same time understanding that you’re not going to know everything. You’re never going to get there. I’m never going to get there.

Glenn’s never going to get there. We’re we’re not going to get there until Yeshua returns. Does that make sense? Okay, Brother Cordon. Yes, sir. It is. Thank you. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. And Shabbat shalom. Hopefully everyone’s having a restful, blessed Shabbat. May God Yovah bless you the rest of your day. Uh I found it very interesting. I think what’s very interesting as far as the literal and the metaphorical is because the angel actually literally basically measures basically the New Jerusalem because it’s kind of like if you try to use it as a metaphorical spiritual thing. It’s kind of like if someone basically said, “Hey, I want to measure this as if I’m measuring a cloud.” Well, you can measure a cloud, but that cloud is eventually going to change its shape. It’s going to change its formula. It’s going to change how it is. There’s no change when it comes to the New Jerusalem. And I think it’s just one of

those things where that way when he comes back, we’re going to get new bodies. We’re going to be in the New Jerusalem, which is going to be beyond amazing. But there’s going to be people outside of that, uh, from different backgrounds, religions, creeds. Um, some of them are going to be, you know, they never really followed Jesus, but they felt like they did. And they’re going to be outside and they’re going to be upset. And the whole idea for nashing of teeth is anger. It’s the word nashing of teeth literally basically means anger. It doesn’t mean uh they’re suffering. They they literally are the international word for anger is you nash your teeth and you put your fist uh at someone. If you do that, that’s the international word for anger. You don’t need basically uh a specific way to say that. You just have to just show that.

And once you show that, they actually basically say, you know, anger and the same thing with uh crying. You know, there’s going to be a lot of people crying. And I think it’s just one of those things. But I also feel it’s like I was reading in when you were talking about these things, it was talking about in Isaiah 65 that, you know, the people will build um uh houses and they will live as long as trees. I feel like one of the directions you had last week, uh, not last week, a few weeks ago when you were talking basically, um, about different things of heaven and other things like that. I think it’s just one of those things where, you know, there’s going to be levels of this where we’re going to be living longer lives. Uh, and I feel like this is going to be for the nations and that the nations are going to be living longer lives, but I think it’s also going to be a chance for spiritual

renewal. They’re going to be following God’s commandments in the right way. Because I mean, we have a way in which we can follow God’s commandments to the best of our abilities, but we could be slightly off. There could be maybe a 5% chance we could be off in certain ways. And then when God comes back, he’s going to tell us the exact right way of doing it. if we may be slightly off here and there because every opinion differentiates from each other. So all I know is that I think when I think of these things it has to basically be literal. It can’t just be just this physical spiritual thing. And again we can’t measure a cloud. We can’t measure a ghost. We basically have to see this in a physical lens and not just a metaphorical. So thank you. I really do appreciate that. Amen. Thank you brother. Thank you. Okay, brother Snow.

Okay. Uh my I have a question. Um Cordon just mentioned Isaiah 65. I’ve been studying out a lot of Isaiah this week and um I wanted to ask the question is is the millennial kingdom and the New Jerusalem happening at different times? Basically, I know there’s a thousand years, but um is the New Jerusalem after that? Just if we could clarify that as far as it pertains to these that depends on on on on whether or not you look at Revelation chronologically or thematically. Um, and I’m Glenn, if I start putting words in your mouth right now, stop me. I think I think Glenn believes that the New Jerusalem doesn’t come until the the millennium is over. I believe the New Jerusalem comes shortly after Yeshua arrives.

And we with them. We are we are taken. We are harvested. The dead in Christ rise first and then we take them with him with them. We meet them in the sky as Paul teaches. We are put away in our chambers for a short while. Those chambers are the New Jerusalem until Yeshua finishes his work of dealing with the the the enemies, the wrath as it’s called. And then everything comes down on the planet where Yeshua rules for a thousand years and we with him during that time. We meaning the faithful. Okay. I believe I also believe that the um the new heavens and the new earth will happen at that time as well.

I believe that the new heavens and the new earth will be happening during the millennium that the world will get a chance to experience the blessing of the new earth during that time that uh Satan is locked up. Uh so um and then of course he gets released and has one more chance to do his dirty deed and then he’s defeated and then the great white throne judgment and then the eighth day. The eighth day meaning eternity with him in the new earth, the new heavens and all is done. That’s that’s what I believe the scriptures teach. If you look at the book of Revelation thematically. So just a now Glenn’s going to present a completely different perspective next week. I can’t wait to hear it. Um so just to follow on that, Ed.

Yeah, go ahead. I just didn’t want to get off this before I got this followup in. Um okay so in Isaiah 56 6 and 7 uh it talks about that the foreigner who joins himself to the Lord is going to be joyful at that time he’s going to offer burnt offerings and sacrifices for his sin at that time. So is that is that inside the mill millennial kingdom and the the New Jerusalem or maybe trying to understand. So that means they have sin that they have to offer you know sacrifice for. Yes. So sin so sin is um able abound somewhere if you will.

Yes. Like I said a moment ago the the during the millennial period the kingdom will be on earth. The New Jerusalem will be on earth and there’ll be two realities. One inside the gate with incorruptible bodies, one outside the gate where sin continues to happen. Those people who are being born during the period of the new millennium will no doubt want to be a part of what’s going on in the New Jerusalem. They have to have a um a method, if you will, use that word, a system to attain that. Well,

salvation for those people will no longer be a matter of faith the way it is for all of us. Why? Well, because Yeshua is right there. I can see him. I can see the New Jerusalem. It’s right there. So, it’s not a matter of belief anymore. He’s there. What will it be a matter of for them? It’ll be a matter of whether or not they obey. And in doing so, they will have to offer sacrifices at the temple, not the New Jerusalem. I don’t believe there’s going to be sacrifices happening within the gates of the New Jerusalem. Why? Well, because spilled blood is unclean and we’re told

that no abomination, no nothing will happen in the New Jerusalem. There will be a third temple on the planet at that time. And I believe the sacrifices will be happening there for those people. Why? Just for the same reason that Israel made sacrifices. It was a covering for their sin. It was a temporary covering for their sin until the time of the great white throne judgment when those Gentiles, those nations who wanted to be a part of what’s happening in the New Jerusalem will will face their judgment. And Revelation tells us that what’s being judged is their works. That’s why I think people get so confused when they read Revelation because everywhere else it talks about

being judged by our faith. And here in Revelation 21 and 22 it says these people are judged by their works. Well, wait a minute. Which one is it? Well, for them it’s their works. It’s their obedience because it’s no longer a matter of faith. That that privilege of salvation by faith is for us who believe without having seen. Blessed are you who believe who have not seen. We haven’t seen Yeshua. We’re we’re putting our faith and our trust in him now. And that’s why we are in one sense lifted up both metaphorically and in in in reality because we are of those who believed by faith. When he’s here and he’s judging the nations, it’s no longer a matter of faith. For them, it’s a matter of obedience.

Does that make sense, Tim? Yeah. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Okay. Brother Allen in Alabama. Yeah, I think that’s a a really great point. Um, I just have one question is what what does Satan being bound for a thousand years have impact on our behavior at that point? That’s a great question and I believe I believe the answer is in the mercy of God. What Glenn Glenn says he’s going to cover that, but let me give you my two cents on it as well. I I believe that it is the heart of our father to give humanity every possible chance to be saved.

He desires that all men repent and come to a knowledge of the truth. So what would life be like even in a fallen world outside the gates without the influence of Satan? It’s going to be drastically different. However, sin is still possible. Rebellion is still possible. I believe the father wants in one sense to give the world a taste, a taste of what life with him would be like during the new millennium. That’s why I believe amongst other reasons then the new earth will be here during that time. But you still have a choice. He’s never going to violate your your free will even then. But I believe it reflects a the nature of our God to want to give

people every opportunity even in the new millennium in the in the in the millennium. Does that answer your question, Alan? Uh yes sir it does. Thank you very much. Okay. Okay Cynthia. Uh listening to what you were just talking about what came to my mind with Satan being bound is that right now we’re under a world of lies. If Satan can’t deceive you through religion, he will he will force you through government. I I do believe government and religion is his two two forces to suppress the truth and to rule the world. So he has to be bound. The other thing that comes to my mind is that Israel was called to be a kingdom of priests and they are also prophesied to be at the head of the nations and not the tail. So for that thousand years,

you’re going to see Israel being the head of the nations as a kingdom of priest. So all these false priesthoods that are established right now will be put they won’t be here. They will be put away. I I am assuming they’re going to be put away because Satan is bound and we’ll go and the world will have an opportunity to see who the real chosen of Hashem is. They will and um I look forward to that because it says that uh waters will flow out. there somewhere it talks about truth will cover the world like water covers the sea that’s going to be during the millennium because it will flow out Jerusalem so that thousand years man will have every opportunity to know the truth and then when he’s released they will choose will they serve God Hashem or not anyway that is what you were saying that was my

thoughts thank you Cynthia appreciate your thoughts as always uh Angela. Yeah. Uh, this kind of came up in the chat in order because they have to show up for for tabernacles. They got to have a physical city to show up for tabernacles. Mhm. And so I’m citing that it is myself. I’m thinking it’s both because the whole Bible’s filled with bridal language. Yeah. Amen. Amen. Thank you for that. Okay, somebody else. Someone just popped their hand up. Cynthy, did you want to add something?

I I have a question and it has to do with resurrection. There are rabbis who teach resurrection, but I don’t think they are thinking of transformation like we believe. We believe when we’re resurrected, we will be transformed and have a body like Christ. But these rabbis are teaching a resurrection that will be more like Lazarus. And it just makes me ponder. I just want to put that out there. You know, we have a resurrection of Lazarus and then we have a resurrection where we’re actually transformed. Anyway, I that’s all. Yes. Well, I think I think both are true. I think um what I mean by that is this. Um, when we are in our new bodies, we are like him, but we’re not ghosts.

When Yeshua is resurrected, he made it a point to have Thomas touch him. Um to I think to help us understand that even in the afterlife, we will have new bodies, incorruptible bodies, but we’re not spirits. We will have people will be able to touch us and vice versa. That’s that’s what I think is the truth of the matter. Um I think Glenn’s going to share something a little different than that next week, but that’s that’s my thoughts. Okay. Anybody else thoughts, questions, rebuttals, rebukes?

Go ahead, Gabby. Hey, Ed. I remember listening to a physicist who is a Christian. Now I don’t know anything about quantum physics but he was saying that our current world and the current reality that we live in is like a digital simulation and that the real tangible world is the spiritual world. And um I think about how Moses had the vision of the tabernacle and he got the blueprint of what that really looked like and brought it here on earth. And so heaven and earth will pass away and heaven will remain. And so just that’s just just it’s like we’re living in a matrix world. And so the spiritual world is

the reality that we’re actually stepping into and it’s the tangible world that we’re made for. So that’s just my thought. Yes. Yes. I have heard that too and it’s a fascinating thought. Um Listen, here’s here’s what I think. The great Paul, the the great theologian Paul is on record of saying three famous words in regards to this time. Anybody know what those three famous words are besides Glenn? Number two, those three famous words are, “I don’t know.” Even Paul said that I don’t know everything that we’re going to be. He knows. Mhm.

And I don’t know and I won’t I won’t even speculate to know. All we can do in some regard is to imagine uh what that existence will be like. And as one of the sisters already shared, there’s going to come a time when the things that we don’t know, we will know. And we’ll be able to we’ll be able to look back and go, “Wow, maybe our existence really was like the Matrix.” I don’t know. Maybe it wasn’t. But we we just we we can only speculate on some of those things. Okay, somebody else. We have a few minutes here before we go. Glenna, do you want to say without tipping your hat, do you want to say anything in regards to what we’re sharing before we go? Love you guys.

All right. Well, if there’s no more questions or thoughts, we can we can wrap up here a little early, which is no problem. We’ll be back again next week and Glenn will have the helm and he’ll be sharing his thoughts on this issue. and I’m looking forward to the fellowship we’ll have then. And um in the meantime, hope you guys have a fantastic Shabbat, a great weekend, a restful day, and a great week, and looking forward to seeing you all very soon. Shabbat shalom. Shabbat shalom. Thank you, Shabbat Shalom. Shabbat shalom. Shalom. Shabbat shalom. Love you all. Shabbat shalom. Shal shalom. Shalom.

Shabbat shalom. Shalom. Thank you, Ed. Hallelujah. Thank you, guys. Have a good day. Thank you.