Chapter 1: Principles of discipleship

Amen. Thank you, David. Practicals of discipleship. What to do, what not to do. This is kind of a a week three lesson on the topic of discipleship. Last week being walking in the light, the importance of walking according to his word and walking in transparency with our brothers and sisters. Today is going to be more of just some practicals of a discipling relationship. And be as I said in the start uh I didn’t have the time that I normally have to put together a complete lesson. So is this going to be a complete discussion on all the practicals of discipleship?

No. We will probably cover a lot of stuff that I didn’t cover in the lesson in the fellowship which is totally fine. And probably the greatest practical of all is just to do it and start doing something. And um that’s already happening in in our group. I’m hearing stories about brothers hooking up and sisters hooking up over chat. So that’s exciting. That’s that’s that many of you have already stepped forward and taken taken the responsibility on yourself to meet up with people. So that’s practical number one. And I want to I want to see if we can’t jump in here and talk about some other basics.

So let’s see here if we can get started. [clears throat] All right. In a recent discussion, we looked at how the practice of discipleship among Yeshua’s earliest followers followers was not a casual association, but a structured way of life that shaped their identity, their conduct, and their understanding of Yehovah’s revelation. If you recall, I shared that several of us in this group, myself included, were formerly involved with the ministry where discipleship was a flagship doctrine. Each of us can and most likely will in the course of this discussion or others share about the great experience that we had in that discipling ministry and some of the nightmare experiences we endured all in the name of discipleship.

It’s important for us to remember this as with any biblical practice. It can be done improperly and it has been done improperly as with any other thing that we endeavor to do in obedience to scripture. I’ve said it a hundred times that as long as man is involved in the scenario, somehow it’s going to go wrong some way in someday. Uh so we just all have to be mature enough to know and accept that as with anything else mistakes can and will happen in regard to this practice. This discussion slashlesson is being done in hopes that we can find a way to execute this biblical practice in a way that honors and glorifies our father as well as building one another up in the faith of Christ.

Chapter 2: Avoiding false authority

So let’s start here. Authority that is not there. I’m going to be making references from time to time about my old group. I want to make sure that you all know that I I don’t do it in a way to disparrage them. Yes, they made lots of mistakes, but they’re not alone in the mistakes that they make in the church world. I’m certain that all of you could probably share about some mistakes that were made in your past while in the church system. All the people that are in these church systems for the most part, the sheep, the people that are in the group, the rank and file members are there because they love God.

That’s the reason I was there. That’s the reason Glenn was there. And so I don’t I hope that nothing that I say as I refer back to them is is I’m not doing that in such a way as to disparrage them or to judge them. Um not not at all. So that little disclaimer aside, one of the things that we did wrong as it pertains to discipleship is placing people in positions of authority that a were not good and b more importantly were not biblical. And I wanted to discuss that here uh first and foremost as we move along. Luke chapter 22.

And truly the son of man goes as it has been determined, but woe to that man by whom he is betrayed. Then they began to question among themselves which of them it was who would do this thing. Now there was also a dispute among them as to which of them should be considered the greatest. Okay. Well, what’s happening here? Well, as displayed in the image on the screen, this was a time when Yeshua was talking about the betrayer Judas meant. He didn’t call him out by name. He’s basically saying, “One among you is going to betray me.” And of course, that created amongst the brothers discussion as to who in the world would do this thing.

But I find it very interesting that they go from wondering who was the worst among them to the very next sentence arguing over who should be the best among them. I I just think that’s uh indicative of human nature in in so many ways. They go from talking about who this person possibly could be that’s going to betray Yeshua and that somehow morphs into a discussion slashargument dispute is what the word says about who which of them was the greatest. To me the passage shows these two opposing self concerns. And I highlight self- concerns on purpose because when you think about it, both of them are worried about the self.

They fear being the one who fails, yet they still argue about one who deserves the highest place. In this case, it’s outward vocalized contention in that group. But in most of our lives, it’s an ongoing inward battle. Nobody ever wants to be the lowest and we all secretly desire desire to be the greatest. Why am I talking about this in this situation? Well, when a person’s given a position of authority that feeds into that part of our sinful nature that we all have. We all secretly want to be identified. We all secretly want to be lifted up and and that’s what this this practice did by elevating certain people over others that we shouldn’t have where I’m going to show you here here in a moment the biblical problems with that.

But people were given positions of authority within small groups based on their level of social astuteness and not on their level of spiritual maturity within the small groups. This authority was structured like a pyramid. I’ve shared this in the past like a pyramid scheme with each person having another quote over them and up the scale it went. We called those over us, our quote discipler. In Yeshua’s teaching, he called them benefactors. And we’re going to look at that in a second. But I hope I never hear the word discipler in this group [laughter] because that that’s that’s just terrible. I I I never felt great about that.

Even when we were practicing it, I hated the practice. Sometimes I still hear it from people who are still members of the group, you know, friends of mine, and it just drives me crazy. I talk about this pyramid scheme. When you talk about this pyramid scheme to any sane person, they’re probably going to be thinking, “Well, where does this pyramid end? If up the scale it goes, where does it stop?” Well, as you would imagine, it stopped at the quote unquote leader of our global churches. Well, who disciples him? Well, yeah, Yeshua decide. No, I mean, no, he had around him certain brothers that quote unquote discipled him, but he was still the man in charge.

And so, it just, you know, it creates people argue, well, this is the model that that Jethro gave Moses. Well, no, not quite. It wasn’t the model that Jethro gave Moses. It was like it. But the one thing that people can do and have done, not just in my old church, but in others is whoever that person is that sits at the top starts thinking he’s somebody, starts thinking he is Moses, starts thinking he is an apostle and he does have this global authority. So there’s all kinds of problems that come as a result of this type of structure. We as followers of Yah are not given that kind of authority over one another.

And we’ve covered this in previous lessons where our relationships should be more linear and not over one another. But this benefactor issue, let’s look at this here in verses 25- 27 in the same chapter, in the same story. In response to the brothers arguing about who should be the greatest, Yeshua said, “The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them, and those who exercise authority over them are called benefactors, but not so among you.” On the contrary, what does that mean? That means the opposite of he who was greatest among you, let him be as the younger. And he who governs as he who serves.

For who is greater, he who sits at the table or he who serves. Is it not who he who sits at the table? Yet I am among you as the one who serves. So what is Yeshua saying? He’s saying in typical gatherings environments, the person who sits at the table is typically the person who is quote unquote greater. That’s why he’s being sat at the table. And we know this in our own lives, whether it’s funerals or weddings or some other social gatherings. The person of honor gets sat at the table at a certain table. But Yeshua is saying, “No, be like me.

I am the one who is serving the table.” But he uses this word benefactors. So whatever a benefactor was or is, one thing is certain. It’s not supposed to be us. What is a benefactor? Let’s look at that a little bit. In the Henistic and Roman world, benefactor became an honorific

Chapter 3: Defining biblical service

for monarchs and civic patrons. That’s important. Civic patrons who financed temples, games, aqueducts, or grain distributions. In other words, these were the sharp people. the rich people, those who stood out amongst the average person. According to this definition, they were the ones who gave a lot. And again, quite honestly, going back to my old group, this was one thing that we did. If a person was considered sharp, he had his act together, he was a big giver, he was usually often elevated to some position of leadership pretty quickly, if nothing [snorts] more than being over a person or two. This was something that we did.

So we were just like the Greeks back then uh elevating these benefactors to positions of authority when there was none to have biblically speaking. In a nutshell, these were people who sought higher positions because of their benevolence and histo and historically as Yeshua says exercised way more authority than they were given. So much so that they were called quote unquote rulers and kings in scriptures. Lay leaders have been plagued by the same disease ever since. And again, I want to go back to my original statement. The sinful nature inside of us. We all want to be somebody. We all want to be recognized as some type of leader or some person who has some special gift.

None of us wants to be left behind. Especially the more ambitious of us. Uh seek these positions, seek the notoriety. In my old days, in my younger days as a young man, I certainly did. I wanted to be chosen and I was chosen early on. I was one of these quote unquote benefactors. I had become a member of my church making Yeshua Lord of my life or Jesus the Lord of my life back then. I wasn’t even 3 months old in the faith when somebody above me came along and said they wanted to make me a leader in our church.

Was I ready for that? Glenn number two, not in any way, shape, or form. But it appealed to my sinful nature. It impeed to my ambitious heart. So I took it [laughter] and and I made a lot of mistakes in do in taking that. That’s why I’m talking about all this because this as Yeshua said should not be so among us. We should not be seeking those positions of authority over one another. No. So not so among us. Let him, as Yeshua said, be as the younger, not be the younger, but as the younger, meaning one who is not quick to speak or exercise authority where none is given by Yah.

Think of Elihu in Job’s story. Remember him when all the brothers came together to quote unquote comfort Job when in reality they he they were rebuking him. What did Elihu do? He sat in the distance quiet listening and then almost begged for permission to speak when it was his turn. And so this is the image that Yeshua is giving. Let him be as the younger when it comes to your interactions with one another. That submissive spirit wanting to listen carefully instead of speaking all the time. Don’t govern. serve and be not like the one who sits at the table, that place that most people desire, but as one who serves at the table, the lowly place.

And I think this is one of the most important tenants of discipleship. We are there to serve one another and not exercise some kind of authority over each other. One of you might be more mature in the faith than the other. Glenn and I are a great example of that. That maturity though should be used to strengthen your brother or sister and not to lord it over them. So that I wanted to get that out of the way and then I wanted to talk briefly about this.

Chapter 4: Humility in correction

Defend or mature. What does that mean? Well, swallowing your pride for growth. defend yourself or become more mature in your faith. What do you think this is an image of, Glenn? Number two, in the picture, somebody’s getting chewed out and somebody’s taking it. [laughter] Yeah. This is um this is Paul and Peter. The conflict between Paul and Peter. And you recall the conflict, right? Pet Peter was being duplicitus. He was being a hypocrite amongst the Gentiles and and Jews and Paul was calling him out. It is human nature and this is important little thing as it pertains to our ironing sharpening iron business that we’ve talked about.

It’s human nature to defend ourselves when a brother points out a flaw in our faith or our character even when the correction is given in love. This impulse to justify ourselves or push back against reproof hinders the very growth that God intends through such moments. Since resisting correction closes the heart to wisdom hardens the conscience and prevents the sharpening that only honest humble accountability can produce. And this is even harder or I should say it’s the hardest when we are being falsely accused. Amen. I I I shared my story weeks ago, a couple of weeks ago when we first opened this line of discussion.

Can of worms. Yes. This can of worms, Glenn says. Uh when I was being confronted as a young believer about sin, my pride, and all I wanted to do was defend myself. All I wanted to do was argue the point. I grew up in a family where pride was a good thing. My dad from a very young age taught all of his children, you be proud of who you are. And so I grew up believing pride to be a good thing. And it wasn’t until I became a believer that I realized that pride is not a good thing. So that had to be weeded out of my heart.

And so initially anytime somebody wanted to say something to me or about me in love, I resisted it. I argued it. I would frustrate the person who was there trying to help me because I wouldn’t listen because I was too, as they were talking, I was too busy thinking about what I was going to say next before I was even listening to them. And this is the this is the issue that I wanted to talk about uh as it pertains to our one-on-one relationships. And as I say, this can be difficult when when you’re falsely accused. That happened to me as well.

There was a time in my life as a young man where I was accused of doing something I didn’t do. And it took every fiber in my being to keep my mouth shut and to and to be like Yeshua. But we we have to learn this. How should we respond when somebody is um trying to teach us something, trying to help us, trying to help smooth off a jagged edge of our personality or our character to be more like Yeshua? Or how should we respond when we’re being falsely accused? Well, Joseph was falsely accused, remember, by Potiphar’s wife, attempting to assault her, right?

Which he didn’t do. And how did he respond to that? Well, he refused to defend himself with counter accusations. He didn’t interject and say, “Wait a minute, that wasn’t me. That was you.” He didn’t do any of that. He remained silent as he was taken to prison. Moses was falsely accused by the nation of Israel of bringing them into the wilderness just to kill them. We don’t see Moses arguing with them, saying, “Shut up. That’s not what I did. You have no idea what you’re talking about.” No, he we that’s not what he did. He appealed directly to the Lord for vindication.

He went and prayed about it and left the judgment to Yah. That can be something that’s very hard for us to do. And yet to do that and be able to do that is to be mature, is to grow in your faith. David was falsely accused by Saul of treachery and seeking to kill him. But we know the story. He he respectfully confronted Saul, affirmed his innocence, and refused to retaliate. You remember the scene in the cave when Saul went to relieve himself and there David was hiding in the cave behind him? He could have taken him out right then and there, but he he wouldn’t he wouldn’t react.

These are lessons for us in our one-on-one relationship. Stephen falsely accused, right? Fabricated testimony before the council. How did he respond? while he maintained composure, spoke truth, filled with the spirit, and entrusted his life to God even as the false testimony stood. And again, always think about this stuff as it pertains to us. We want to defend ourselves so that false testimony can’t stand. But in many cases, I was just reading about Jeremiah this week. All the false accusation against him, he still went to prison. Even though the things he was accused of was false, Stephen was still killed. Even though the stuff he was being accused of was false, he didn’t defend himself.

And of course, we know that Yeshua is the greatest example of all of this in regards to humility. Yeshua, who was consistently falsely accused of blasphemy, being demon-possessed, of breaking the Shabbat, forbidding people to pay taxes to Caesar, threatening to destroy the temple, deceiving the people, accused of being a drunkard, a glutton, and even a sinner. And yet, what do we see Yeshua doing over and over and over and over again? He takes it. He absorbs it. He doesn’t strike out to defend himself except for one time when he was forced to answer because the Pharisees in this case used the law to get him to speak.

Do you do you recall the verse I’m talking about? Glenn number two. Can’t name the verse, but I remember it. You remember the story? Mhm. Matthew 26, chief priests, elders, and council sought false testimony against Jesus to put him to death, but found none. Even though many false witnesses came forward, they found none. But at last, two came forward and said, “This fellow said that he’s able to destroy the temple of God and build it again in three days.” The high priest arose and said to him, “Do you answer nothing?” Why did he say that? Because against all of these false testimonies and accusations, Yeshua did not respond in pride.

When somebody is trying to help you in your life, in your heart, in your personality, in your marriage, in your walk with Yehovah, sometimes, and I should say most of the time, if not all of the time, any response can sometimes be interpreted as defense. and pride. And I learned that the hard way. I I understood the tenant of humility when somebody is trying to challenge me on something or help me with something because I understood that and I didn’t want to be prideful. Sometimes I would respond by asking questions in a way that appeared to be humility, but really what I was doing was masking my defense by false humility.

And one of the older brothers realized that one day as we were sitting in a staff meeting. This was back when I was an evangelist for the church. And afterwards, he pulled me aside and he helped me see, Ed, I can I can see what you’re doing, but all you’re doing is masking your pride by asking what could be interpreted by some as humble questions. when sometimes all you need to do when somebody is trying to help you see something is close your mouth. And we’re going to see that the scripture actually does teach that here in a moment. And that’s exactly what we see Yeshua doing.

There’s a myriad of different things he could have said in response to all these fact false accusations. But the scripture said he answered nothing. He kept his mouth shut. Why? Well, because he’s aware of scripture. One, but two, he was absolutely the epitome of humility. So the chief priest said, “You, you answer nothing. What is it these men testify against you?” But Yeshua kept silent. And the high priest answered and said to him, I adure you by the living God. Now some of your translations will say, I put you under oath by the living God. But the Greek is, I adure you by the living God.

Tell us if you are the Christ, the son of God. Yeshua said, “It is as you said.” So now he answers. For some reason, now he answers. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the son of man sitting at the right hand of the power and coming in the clouds of heaven. And the high priest tore his clothes, which he should never done, but according to the law. He has spoken blasphemy. What further need do we have of witnesses? Look, now you’ve heard this testimony. What do you think? They answered, “He needs to die.” And they spat in his face and beat him.

And others struck him with the palms of their hands, saying, “Prophesy to Christ, who is the one that struck you?”

Chapter 5: The strength of silence

So I asked Clint number two or David since you’re there sitting quietly. Why did Yeshua finally answer this when all before he was sitting quiet? Well, the high priest had the authority. High priest had the authority. Okay.

Chapter 6: Scriptural response to conflict

When the high priest said, “I adure you by the living God,” he invoked what’s called the chauff. So he invoked this judicial oath according to Leviticus 5:1. When a person is placed under a binding oath in a legal setting and is a witness to the truth, he must testify or he becomes guilty. And that’s what Leviticus 5:1 says. If a person quote sins in hearing the utterance of an oath and he is a witness, whether he has seen or known of the matter, if he does not tell it, he bears guilt. by answering it is as you said Yeshua fulfilled the Torah requirement to speak when adjured in a formal inquiry.

That’s why Yeshua finally spoke and said something when the high priest said, “I adjure you by the living God.” I didn’t know that. Glenn didn’t know that to to me. Now, this is a side note from our discussion on discipleship. To me, this is just more proof of how Yeshua would not be played. He would not give in to sin. He had to be the the spotless lamb. And even in these little details, a Torah commandment about speaking when you’re under oath in a legal environment, which they were in, he did not fall. He did not sin by bearing guilt.

He spoke when the Torah said he should speak and not until the Torah said he should speak. Why am I saying all of this? There is strength in silence. Proverbs 17, he who has knowledge spares his words, and a man of understanding is of a calm spirit. Even a fool is counted wise when he holds his peace. When he quote shuts his lips, he is considered perceptive. You think Yeshua was aware of these verses? Yeah. Proverbs 10, in the multitude of words, sin is not lacking. And I think the NIV says, “Where are many, sin is not far, but he who restrains his lips is wise.”

And that is so true. When you’re talking to a person about something that may be of a confrontative, if that’s a word, or conflict, you know, oriented discussion, confrontational person talks and talks and talks and talks and talks there. That that’s that’s telling us something. Sin is not far. Sin is not lacking. It’s the person who is constantly trying to defend himself over and over and over again or herself. There’s sin there. Proverbs 29, a fool vents all his feelings, but a wise man holds them back. Again, read all these through the context of discipleship, of the one-on-one relationship. Ecclesiastes 3, there’s a time to keep silent and there’s a time to speak.

In James 1, so then my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath, or the wrath of man does not for the wrath of man does not produce the righteousness of God. So when we look at these verses, what are the dues? Glad number two, shut up. What are Okay, [laughter] what are the dues, David? Well, let’s look at them. Let’s highlight them. The dues are spare the words. Have a calm spirit. Hold your peace, shut your lips, hold your words back, be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath. What are the don’ts?

Well, the don’ts are the multitude of your words. You know, don’t run your mouth. Don’t Yeah, Glenn says run your mouth. Don’t run your mouth. Choose your words carefully. Don’t be that person that’s constantly venting all of your feelings. We all have feelings, but just because we all have feelings doesn’t mean every single one of them need to be heard when somebody is trying to help you with something. And of course, the wrath of man. We don’t want to be that person that no one can talk to. No one wants to talk. I’m not talking to him. I’m not talking to her about A, B, or C.

Are you kidding me? Because they’re afraid of your wrath. They’re afraid of your venting. They’re afraid of all the things that you’re going to say in defense. No one likes to talk to that person. And that should not be for us as believers. And I

Chapter 7: Restoration and caution

want to finish with this. Told you it was going to be fast. David and I talked about this in Washington over dinner. My number two and I talked about this over breakfast a few weeks ago because this is an important issue and perhaps the most important issue in our discussion today. Galatians 6:1. We have to exercise caution in love with one another. Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you be tempted. So I want to ask at this point, what is Paul saying here?

I want to give Glenn number two a chance to respond. when I give David a chance to respond and how this applies to our discussion of discipleship. I think that there and this is just a reference to the conversation that you and I had when we’re dealing especially here it says when when someone is overtaken by any trespass right so when there is sin involved uh the point that that Ed and I were discussing is that when sin is involved and you are presented you know through in an atmosphere and environment of of confession for example with an expectation or a desire to be open uh about your sin and to uh you know ultimately be healed in a similar way that’s described in James 5 and in a way of you know bringing things into the light.

I think that there’s an element here that that should be considered and I don’t have the the perfect answer of how to address this, but when you’re doing that and that’s something that there’s a there’s a a warning here to be careful when these kind of things are shared as they may cause the hearer to struggle as they may put the plant potentially some sinful seeds in the mind of of the one that is that these things are being shared with right and that is something that you know Ed and I were going back and forth the question is who bears that responsibility right is it responsibility of the sharer to make that distinction or determination to say okay well can this brother handle what I’m sharing with them or is it going to cause them to struggle or vice versa as the person that is being shared with is

it their responsibility to say uh you know please don’t share too many details because you know that is something that I might struggle with right but I think that there’s still an element here of being considerate of the of what is being shared and shared in a way that or or being aware as it clearly warns us here that this kind of uh openness can lead to temptation. Yes. Any other thoughts? Yeah, I I take this as um I take this a lot more in in a direct fashion because I think this u if I remember right, this this is followed by a blessing that’s a powerful blessing.

uh that if if you restore somebody uh in in first Corinthians there was a a gentleman part of the church who was involved with his mother-in-law and Paul gave instructions about that and so you know this is you know brethren if a man is overtaken in any trespass that doesn’t mean in my opinion that’s not a trespass that they came and confessed that’s an if if You observe them doing something they shouldn’t be involved in. And then you help them see that they need to repent of that. And then because of your manner, because of your gentleness and and everything, you know, especially considering yourself that you’re exposed to temptations as well.

then you know if you’re successful in restoring that one then you receive the the blessing that follows that. So I don’t take this as something where if somebody comes to you and they confess and the reason I don’t take that is because if if they’re coming to you and confessing then they’re already in the spirit of repentance. They’re already there. Mhm. Uh so they’re they don’t need somebody to restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness because they’re they’re already humbling themselves. They’re already repenting. Yet Paul says this. So I think it’s observational. If a man is overtaken in any trespass, just like the the gentleman in First Corinthians, he’s he’s doing something he shouldn’t do.

you in the fellowship afterwards. I want you to pull up that verse in first Corinthians so we can so we can read it together. Yeah. When I when I see this, I see exactly what Glenn started off by saying, there’s no verse in here that or no mention of somebody confessing something. Yeah, of course not. However, in this picture, there is still somebody else involved in the restoration of the individual. If he is confessing, as Glenn said, then he’s already on his path to repentance just by the nature of being open and honest about his sin. But there is a second person here involved who is helping quote restore such a one in the spirit of gentleness.

Right? So we have to at least assume at the very least that this person whoever he or she is is there in the capacity of helping another person repent. And then he uses these words lest you also be tempted. Well, what in the world could that mean? Well, I try to put this in modernday scenarios and I’ll I’ll throw one out here to you just to help you understand what this might be telling us. Let’s just say there’s two brothers and they uh are peers and they are in a discipling relationship with one another. They’re helping each other. They’re studying the Bible together.

They’re learning. They’re growing. However, they both have a history, a past of dealing with pornography or being addicted to pornography or some type of lustful background and they’re trying to mutually help one another, you know, share or grow in that aspect of their faith. Brother A comes to brother B and in the spirit of confession says, “I I really blew it over the weekend and I went to such and such a website and I spent an hour looking at this stuff and I just need to talk about it and you know get it off my chest, you know, let you share your thoughts.”

Okay. All that’s done in the spirit of transparency. All that’s done in the spirit of wanting to be free of of this and you’re talking to God about it. You’re talking to a brother. All that’s good and good and well intended. However, that other brother might when he’s done with that interaction go off and think to himself, “Huh, I don’t ever remember seeing that website. I wonder what it’s like.” Tap tap tap tap. And now he is going to said website because he was tempted. So there is danger in this type of relationship and I think that is could be what Paul’s talking about.

Was he talking about pornographic websites? No, obviously not. But there those things still can be there. We can still allow ourselves to be tempted by hearing the failings or the sins of another. And I think this is one of the objections that Glenn himself raised early on when we were talking about this. It’s absolutely real. So what what’s the solution then, David? What would you say the solution would be in a situation like this? I think it’s finding the right balance of being open yet without sharing too many details that could cause someone else to struggle. I think it’s just being outwardly focused on the impact that our words can have on the person that we are discussing with.

Yeah. To me, if you were to ask me what the solution is, the solution is simple. The brothers need to know each other. It’s almost implied that if I’m brother A and I know that my best friend, brother B, also has some of the similar struggles with me as I do, I might not want to share openly with him. I might go share with somebody else. And I can share from a personal experience. I I myself was one of those people that had issues with pornographic imagery in my youth. And and [snorts] it’s it’s plagued me even as an adult.

When I was nine years old, I had a neighbor an adult neighbor bring me bags of pornography on a weekly basis. 9 years old. He thought it was cool. All behind the back of my parents and grandparents. Being nine years old and being fed that kind of stuff at that young early age set my life on a path to where it’s something that I struggle with at the very least in my mind all the time. In the course of my adult life, there were brothers that I knew that I was very close to that had similar backgrounds and a few that I knew did not.

I always felt more comfortable talking to the brothers that did not than the ones that did for this very reason. I sought the counsel and help of people who were strong in this area and not weak. And so we have to use wisdom in in dealing with one another in this regard. We need to be considerate of what we say and to whom we say it as well as being careful as to what we hear. Don’t just confess your sin to anyone. Matthew 7 I thought was an appropriate passage. Why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye but do not consider the plank in your own eye?

First remove the plank from your own eye and then you will clearly uh be able to see to remove the speck in your brother’s eye. What’s the aim of this whole verse? The aim of discipling relationships regarding sin is to help remove it from each other, mine and yours, not to increase it or to sit in judgment over it. The goal, as Paul says, is to present every man perfect in Christ, warning every man, teaching every man in all wisdom so that we can together be presented in Christ. So, what are some of the dos and the don’ts as we’ve looked at discipleship over these last three weeks?

Let’s look at them very briefly. Speak the truth with gentleness and humility, seeking restoration rather than victory. Examine yourself first so that correction comes from a clean and sober mind and a p place of love. Bear one another’s burdens and walk with the person as they pursue repentance. Use scripture as the standard for identifying sin and for guiding correction. Guard your words so that they build up rather than provoke defensiveness. Keep matters private unless scripture requires broader involvement. Listen carefully so that you do not misjudge the situation of the person. Maintain a spirit of meekness so you don’t fall into the same temptation.

Encourage visible fruit of repentance and continued obedience. Aim for spiritual maturity that leads both people to be presented to Christ blameless. As we just looked at, what are the don’ts? Don’t correct with pride or harshness or a sense of superiority. Do not expose someone’s struggle publicly when scripture calls for discretion. Don’t make assumptions or act on incomplete information. Don’t use correction to control, shame, or elevate yourself. Do not tolerate ongoing sin by remaining silent when you should speak. Do not ignore your own vulnerabilities and weaknesses while addressing others. Do not let gossip or outside voices shape your judgment. Do not weaponize scripture in order to win an argument.

And do not create def dependence on yourself. Direct them to God’s word and his spirit. And finally, do not forget that the goal is always [snorts] restoration, unity, and holiness. So, I told you it would be a short lesson, and it is. And so, having all that in your mind, in

Chapter 8: Group discussion and Q&A

your heart, as always, I want to hear your thoughts, your comments, your rebuttals, your rebukes. I’m open to all of them. You want me to talk about the Yes. Thank you, Glenn, for reminding me. So, the verse that you were mentioning in 1 Corinthians one, uh, 1 Corinthians, what was it? Corinthians 5. 1 Corinthians 5. The whole chapter. Okay. Lay it on us. In 1 Corinthians 5, you have a gentleman, part of the ecclesia, that is having an affair with his mother-in-law. M so it is presumed that his father was dead and had previously married a younger woman and then and now he was having an affair with his stepmother.

And so, uh, Paul is not there in person, but through the letter that he wrote, 1 Corinthians, uh, he he really gets on the congregation for tolerating this because it’s definitely against Torah. You’re supposed to mess with your father’s wife. And so he’s getting on them for tolerating it. We’re allowing uh leaven uh and and this, you know, first Corinthians uh is is all about the days of unleaven bread. And so he in that chapter, he talks about a little leaven leavenvens the whole lump. So if you tolerate sin in your midst, you will be affected by it. And so he urges them to get this sin out of the congregation uh by by not fellowshipping with this guy, not allowing him to be part of the ecclesia.

And uh so that’s that’s what the whole chapter is about is if you see somebody sinning and you don’t do anything about it, if you tolerate it, then you expose you know the whole yourself and the whole ecclesia to uh to that uh leaven of sin. Mhm. Now, the end of the story is um they they kick this guy out of the church and wouldn’t have anything to do with him. And so in second Corinthians, I don’t remember which chapter, but they’re ex they’re corrected again by Paul for not after this guy corrected his behavior for not welcoming him back into the ecclesia because you know it it was nobody reached out to him.

Nobody was checking on him. It’s like you’re out and you’re out for good. M and and so Paul exhorted them to repent of that attitude and to bring him back in into the uh congregation. But it was an observational. So whenever it gets back to um uh where we were uh Galatians 61 61 um what what’s that first part of that says if one is if anyone is caught in any transgression that’s a ESV caught. Yeah. What what is uh do you have access to the New King James? It says, “If a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual,” right?

So if a man is overtaken in any trespass to me, you know, that doesn’t mean that he’s coming to you and confessing his sin, that means that he’s overtaken in it. Just like the story in 1 Corinthians 5. Okay. not necessarily dismisses the possibility that he came to confess, but I hear I understand you’re saying it’s not explicitly expressed. I’m saying that the the fact that he’s not if he’s coming to confess, then he’s obviously not overtaken in it. He’s already in a spirit of trying to fight his way out of a situation and bringing a a a brother in for support, but he’s not in that situation like the gentleman in 1 Corinthians 5 is where, you know, not only was he involved in sin, but the whole congregation was accepting his sin.

Anyway, it’s just a thought. So, no, it’s okay. I appreciate that, Glenn. And uh David, I’m looking at the you can’t see this, but I’m looking at the word in the Greek uh pro prolambano. Prolamano. Um to take in advance, eat before you have an opportunity. Surprise. Overtake. take before um to take before the the verb carries the idea of acting in advance before others or taking by surprise. Yeah. So what does that mean? Does that mean that the meaning is more like caught than fall? Well, if he’s confessing, he’s not caught. Um That’s what I’m that’s what I’m Well, that’s that’s that makes a big difference because Mhm.

Uh one on one hand, Galatians, if we look at that as overtaken, um then that would it changes whether or not the person’s actually coming to repent. Yeah. Right. Or whether he’s caught or Yeah. Or one whether he’s caught. So what is it? So there’s a there’s a citation here next to the word uh and here it says caught. So um so then is that the way we should read this verse? If a if a man is caught that that changes the the message and that he was not there to repent in the first place. He was caught in a trespass.

The second half of the scripture doesn’t change. Because really whether the person is there to honestly repent or he’s caught doesn’t change how the man of God should deal with it, right? That we should restore such a one in the spirit of gentleness and love. And if they’re not and keep yourself from being tempted and if they’re not willing, then you don’t hang out with them. Well, yeah. Then then church discipline gets sort discipline comes into into play. Okay, awesome. Good stuff, guys. Both of you. Now, listen, we had a couple of hands up a second ago. Who were they?

Was that Christine? Go ahead, Christine. I’m just uh I I agree with most of what Glenn said. My only thought is that if you are confessing, then you have already fallen. You have already struggled to the point of sin. Otherwise, it’s not [clears throat] a confession. If there’s no sin involved, then it’s just conversation. But confession, if a brother or a sister comes to you and confesses um whatever it is they’re confessing, then that signals that there is at least a certain measure of struggle to the extent that they fell into sin. Amen. Thank you, James. Okay. Good um evening from here.

Let me put on my video. Okay. Yeah. Hello, brother Ed. Hello everyone. Happy Sabbath to us all. Uh what a great discussion here. I’m calling from Lagos, Nigeria, in case you’re wondering why I said good evening. Right. So it’s been a very very useful discussion and um discipleship is one thing that is missing in most uh congregations obviously especially for some of us that um uh God is helping to unlearn uh the mainstream Christian thing if you understand what I mean right um and what I would say is the major clincher for me in this discussion basically is humility humility is the major because um both from I mean for example I had a situation in my church where you know the pastor in the church uh because of my kind of person I like to research stuff I like to ask questions I like to know what the truth

about stuff uh is right it was seen it was seen as um a subtle form of rebellion right and I wasn’t trying to rebel I wasn’t seeking for any kind of position within the church or anything but it was just like that though I mean we kind of reconciled everything kind of died down and I had to forgive him on many stuff there were many false accusations flying all over the place right but I just had to let go on many of those things so you when you talking about false accusation and you being silent and all of that I I can relate very very well with everything you are saying so I would say is humility on both sides humility on the side of the person who is to be corrected and humility on the side of the person who is corrected.

Right? I think if um uh the body of Christ learns humility and we really allow humility to reign, I think we would witness a lot of um growth in the body. I I really think so that humility is the key to unlock every other thing. Right? But um this is aside the conversation uh today. I just noticed something on the group and I say this um just uh because it’s just a bit uh um disturbing for me. Um I noticed someone smoking on the group and everything and I was just wondering I I sent brother David a message but I’m sure he didn’t see it and I think I sent brother Ed also a message.

I’m sure you also didn’t see because you guys are very involved in in the teaching. I just wanted to know is that permissible as a believer? Is it uh neutral? Are we indifferent or is it good or not? I just want to know really because I have a certain predisposition to it. Maybe I’m not seeing things uh correctly. I just want you can take this out of the final recording, please. I don’t mind to disrupt anything, but I just want to know. Okay. Thank you. That’s that’s fine, brother. There’s no no questions not allowed. Glenn Glenn said he wanted to uh respond to you.

It it’s it’s perfectly okay to smoke turkey and brisket. [laughter] Tobacco, not so much. Is that what you were? Okay. So, did you did you say you saw someone smoking or that you heard someone talking about smoking? No. No. I was um I was on the main screen where you were having the display. So, I swiped back into where you could see everybody and my eye just caught someone smoking and you know, flaunting it all over the video and I was like, “Oh, this is interesting. I would like to ask what’s what’s going on here.” It’s kind of distracted me a bit.

I’m sorry. Maybe it’s just because of my background, right? But um I just thought I should ask. Yeah. So here here it is in a nutshell, bro. 4:17. What does it say? To him that knoweth to do right, but does not, to him it is sin. Okay, so Glenn’s making it a conscience issue. Um, I often wondered why when I watched documentaries on hidic Jews, oh, why are they all smoking? I noticed that in a lot of these documentaries and so I did some research on it as I do, you know.

Well, the truth of the matter is the Torah says nothing about uh smoking or you know tobacco products. Does that mean that it’s that it’s good? No. If you know it’s unhealthy. All things are lawful. Not all things are beneficial. Um so you have to that’s one of those things that you have to leave up to the believer. The church, the evangelical church, uh, has made has outlawed basically smoking and called it sin.

It it’s done a lot of things. It’s called a lot of things sin that actually aren’t. Remember, sin is a violation of Torah according to John. So, if you want to call something a sin, then you have to say, okay, where does this violate Torah? And that’s one of those things that the Torah does not outright talk about. Paul goes on to talk about that certain things are possible, but not all things are are beneficial and that we shouldn’t be mastered by things.

Uh but he doesn’t make reference to anything in the Torah. So that’s that’s my safe two cents on this. [laughter] If anyone else wants to offer Thank you very much a response then uh then feel free. Yeah, I mean just a quick response to that if you don’t mind. Um my background where I come from is not really about um the church uh doctrine. Where I come from personally now is I see on the smokers advert that smokers are liable to die young.

And I’m like, hey, if they tell you you’re liable to die young, why are you putting yourself near to death, right? That’s where I’m coming from, right? And you’re very right, sir, by saying that there’s nowhere in the commandments of God uh that tells whether to smoke or not to smoke. That’s true. But I just felt the principle of the manufacturers tell you you’re liable to die young. Why should you put yourself close to death? So, that’s where I’m coming from. But it’s okay.

It’s fine. It’s one of those uh squables. It’s okay. Thank No, no, it’s okay, brother. I appreciate your thoughts and your questions as always. Okay, Celestina, I’m so happy I heard from that brother. He said he’s from Lagos, Nigeria. I’m so happy, brother. You’re welcome. Um, network has been an issue. Um, concerning what he raised about smoking. Um you know in the contemporary church where we grew up like for me personally you know I grew up not feeling you know all this adornment makeup and all this we see it as like worldliness and all that but um over the yes have been study like there was a one

some meetings some Shabbat ago we talked about sin and We said that the Torah was the foundation to know what sin is. And then whatever the Torah does not call sin is not sin. And whatever the Torah call sin is sin. It might some of these things can take some of us back based on our foundation and um where we are coming from. You know we have the we grew up with this kind of judgmental spirit. When you see somebody do some certain things, you begin you class the person to a particular place.

I believe that Abba is going to is helping us specifically me to understand and um to get along and then love people and trust that as the ruach is working in my life is also at work in their life that all things will be beautiful in your time. Shabbat shalom family. Amen. Thank you sister. Thank you. Super Samuel. Shalom. Shalom, brother. Thank you so much. Um, brother Ed, just a couple of or several thoughts rather on um the things that have been shared.

Yes, discipleship is is extremely important. Um, very essential to my mind. discipleship tends to follow along the same lines of the organization of the children of Israel under the leadership of of Moshe and then Joshua. I don’t think too much changed except that you had a situation where now the body of Messiah in a dispersion um had to be brought back into certain realizations and understandings in order to conduct orderly fellowships.

A lot of the rules that that you’ll see um coming forth in the the letters of the the apostles follow along the lines that are established in Torah because you know quite frankly in certain instances where an Israelite um was reluctant or outright iniquitous whose conscience was seared and was a destructive force to all of the nation. at some point they would have to be cut off but there was a process for that and you see that same process outlined I believe it’s in Matthew but I know um Hamashiach explained it where you know if you go to your brother in the event that there’s a dispute or there’s an ,

issue and you’re not able to resolve it then you have to go you get another brother or two other brothers to serve as a witness and bring bring them to see if you can resolve the issue or establish some understanding and if that don’t work then you take them before the assembly and that’s where the the corporate judgment occurs and where things are done in order to either instill correction or to exile someone who’s potentially cancerous in terms of transgression, iniquity um or let’s say wayward doctrine that falls outside of what’s prescribed by the most high.

um you know I see a lot of things that that you know Raf Shaul or Apostle Paul um lays out to to Timothy and to various other assemblies in terms of how they are to conduct themselves. So I think the the guidelines and the rules of discipleship are there and I think what you did brother Ed with the list that you shared and with the verses that you shared more or less encapsulated a lot of that information. um in a way that is easily digestible.

But I think when you research the scriptures, you you you see it um you understand it. And the one thing that you want to avoid that we see in a lot of congregations is the spirit of the nickelans or the spirit of of Balum more or less where the idea is to lord over other individuals to try and assume a position of authority especially for self arrandisement. That becomes the issue and service ultimately is the point because whoever is going to be the greatest in the kingdom of heaven is the one who obeases himself and serves the body.

Mhm. That’s the whole point of it. It’s an issue of service. There’s an interesting discussion that’s that’s going on right now in terms of what what is classified as a sin. Um, and I’m just stating this from my own understanding. Sin does not begin and end with the physical act that goes against the most high. It begins in the mind which is why Messiah spoke on what actually constituted adultery.

And if you look at the instructions, what we call the ten commandments, one of the most important commandments that I think is overlooked is that of coveting. Coveting doesn’t occur when you’re actually stealing something. It doesn’t occur when you’re laying with another man’s woman. It occurs when you are preoccupied with that thought. You’re thinking on it to the point that the rumination then becomes obsession and ultimately it leads to the physical manifestation thereof of that thing which you imagined in your mind. So it’s important for us to to capture every thought and subject it to Messiah.

And the last thing I would share is that that yes, there are certain things you’re not going to find explicitly outlawed um in the Torah if you’re reading it just for literal understanding. But I think that there are principles within Torah and that it’s layered understanding. So certain things that you know we think we don’t see like um you know taking drugs for recreational purposes altering our consciousness actually that’s considered a form of witchcraft or sorcery um it’s called pharmarmacia in in the Brit Kadesha and when it comes to smoking cigarettes in terms of taking in nicotine directly through that mechanism I look at it as problematic.

think because we’re told that our bodies are temples or tabernacles of the most high and anything that degrades that that and and compromises us to the point where it can become an idol to us I think is is at least levaven if not an outright sin and I think sometimes we focus so heavily on sin that we forget levan levan is not sin levan is that thing worldly levan is that thing that operates in the world that builds up in us where we think that we’re skating around the Most High doing something when in point of fact we’re building and opening up ourselves to spirits of deception and to wrongdoing that ultimately leads to

transgression um of Torah and our ability to focus and to move in the right direction and subjecting oursel to Messiah and to the father. So, thank you for allowing me to share, Brother Ed. And Shabbat shalom to to the Mish Parka. Amen, brother. Appreciate you as always. All good stuff. Any other thoughts or questions before we wrap up here? Anything at all? Well, um on a on a on another note. Oh, go ahead, Tim. We’ll have you be the last one to share.

Oh, okay. Um a couple things. Um, having come from the same group that Ed did where we made discipleship uh a Talmood experience for three decades. Um, I just wanted to chime in on what I’ve learned I through that process. Um, number one is in your list. I I thought your list was really good on the dos and don’ts. Um, I’m reminded and even I know the Galatians 6:1 discussion. And I’m reminded of one thing that that wasn’t in the list that I wanted to remind.

It’s it’s uh it’s 1 Thessalonians 5:17. And it says, “Pray without ceasing.” And the reason I’m bringing that up is because, you know, people think pray without ceasing means, you know, when you pray with somebody that or pray by yourself that you’re just monotonously or habitually, you know, praying, you know, mindless prayers. We know that’s not true, you know, like in the Luke 5 prayer, that’s [snorts] that, you know, even Catholics do.

That’s not what was meant to. But but when I looked into it, it it’s a Greek there’s an ancient Greek term that that that pray without ceasing is um is like a it’s likened to a habitual cough. Like when you like [clears throat] you cough, uh let me pray for this person. Oh, someone cut me off. Let me pray for that person. And it’s it’s praying throughout the day. So in in the context of discipleship, but really I think the whole temptation thing when you’re praying with somebody who has fallen or you’re fallen or you know or what have you, I think the power of prayer through discipleship is really really key.

So I just wanted to bring that one up. Um also too, um I feel that that it’s still an epidemic. um that people are not practicing discipleship and it’s very very clear that we are to practice discipleship and the Matthew 28 verse20 passage is really not being done and I I I you know I don’t think that’s okay. I think I think we’ve got to keep in season and out of season. You got to keep not teaching people information, making disciples and baptizing them and teaching them information, but teaching them to obey.

And yes, Ed said the context was, you know, doing that to somebody you know. And so, yeah, how do you how do you teach someone to obey that you don’t know? So, that that the context is being in a relationship. So, um anyway, um that’s that’s kind of what I’m I’m I’m thinking of is is also just to to to do it. Um Ephesians 5:21 is sub you look at submitting to one another. That passage is not preached in discipleship.

That means lowering yourself in a relationship to one another. Really, really submitting to them. Um, instead of being contentious like we were like the James and like the disciples and fighting each other all the time. Well, I’m not prideful. Oprah, you’re prideful. No, you know, you know that that’s I’ve been in so many of those conversations as both the attacker and the attackee. Like, so, um, I’m joking, but it’s true. Uh, it will flush you out and show you what’s actually in your heart and trauma that you have in your in your life.

Um, so there’s a method to to God’s madness. I just wanted to say a couple of those things. Um, and I’m reminded my friend Ed said to me that I’m working on is the calmst person in the room always wins. So, thank you for that last week or the week before. Amen. Hope you guys have a great day. Amen. Well, thanks Tim. Okay, listen guys. We want one quick thing. There’s a brother in our group. It looks like he he’s still Oh, yeah.

He’s still here. Sean Renard. Renault. Sorry. He had wave at us Sean so everyone can see your failure are okay. He has offered to us give his skill to helping our website be more awesome. So him along with Michael have turned their attention to the website to make it more useful where we can download transcripts, download PDF files, download um trans not transcripts but slides. Many of you have asked for slides.

Um so I just want to one recognize him and thank him and Michael for offering that for our group. uh be looking for it once once we get it to where we want it to be. We’ll uh we’ll relaunch it if you will, whatever you want to call it. But um thank you for that, Sean and Michael, if you’re in the group. I don’t see Michael. Maybe he’s not here today. But uh guys, listen, have a great Shabbat. Have a great weekend. Love each other.

Enjoy one another’s fellowship. And we will see you again next week. Shabbat shalom. Bachelor. Happy Thanksgiving. [laughter] Happy Thanksgiving.